Do You Have a Favorite Veggie Meat?

We discuss Adventist culture, diet, and the Sabbath, looking at the good and bad aspects of these things. Abby and Ami are joined by Alex, and they ask their friends "What's your favorite veggie meat?"
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Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Haystacks & Hell Intro

[00:00:00] Santiago: Welcome to Haystacks and Hell, an ex-Adventist podcast where we tell stories about growing up Seventh-day Adventist, leaving faith behind, and building new, fulfilling lives.

Interview Previews

[00:00:16] Ami: Do you have a favorite veggie meat?

[00:00:18] Guest 4: As a once vegetarian and now meat eater, I will say that I still cannot get enough of the MorningStar Buffalo Chicken Tenders. They're so good!

[00:00:27] Guest 7: My favorite veggie hotdog is obviously, and this is the correct choice for everyone, is Veja-Links.

[00:00:35] Guest 8: I'm gonna start with hotdogs because that's obviously the wrong choice. Linketts are the best and everybody knows that.

[00:00:40] Guest 7: Bullshit!

[00:00:41] Guest 8: It's a universal fact, Linketts are the best.

[00:00:43] Guest 7: Bullshit.

Coming Up: Adventist Culture

[00:00:47] Santiago: Welcome back to Haystacks and Hell! I'm your host Santiago and today, we've got a bit of a shorter episode. So far, we've been talking about some pretty heavy topics so for this episode, we're going to take a more lighthearted and high-level look at Adventist culture in the U.S. If you've got any stories to share around this, especially if you're outside the U.S., we'd love to hear them.

[00:01:12] Santiago: Before I forget, make sure to follow the show by subscribing on YouTube or your favorite podcast app. Links to this and more are in the show notes.

[00:01:20] Santiago: I also want to encourage you to check out our website at hell.bio. There is a Resources page with links to great books, films and shows, and other relevant podcasts, and there's also some new links to mental health professionals who specialize in religious trauma.

[00:01:38] Santiago: Each episode also has full written transcripts on the website. And the goal here is to make this podcast accessible to folks who are deaf or hard of hearing and also, if you want to read in another language, you can use Google translate to follow along.

[00:01:54] Santiago: I also want to point out that there's a brand new Stories page where we're highlighting stories submitted by listeners like you. Even though we may share some things in common, everyone's experience is unique and you never know how your story could help somebody else. So if you have something to share, I hope you'll consider sharing it with us so we can bring your story to others.

Everyday Life

[00:02:16] Santiago: So overall, when I think of SDA culture, I tend to think of it in three main buckets. There's everyday life, life during the Sabbath hours, and community. And when I think about my everyday life as an Adventist, one of the first things that usually comes to mind is the health message and being a vegetarian.

[00:02:36] Santiago: My mom was very health-conscious, and so I was born and raised vegetarian. She was not raised vegetarian, she is a first-generation Adventist, so she became vegetarian after she converted to Adventism and learned about the health message.

[00:02:54] Santiago: My dad was also a first-generation Adventist and he converted later on, so he had to get used to going from being a meat eater to being a vegetarian. But I never had to deal with that transition, it's just basically what I've known my whole life.

[00:03:09] Santiago: So I think that's a big reason why I'm actually still, for the most part, a vegetarian today. I've definitely had some meat while eating out and while traveling for the experience, and to be honest, I've really enjoyed some of the meals I've had. But my default is still being a vegetarian, I think just because it's really all I've known and it's what comes most naturally to me.

[00:03:32] Santiago: I know not everyone likes veggie meat, but many ex-Adventists still do, and I'm one of them. So at the end of this episode, you're going to hear some pretty strong preferences and differences in opinion around which veggie hot dog is the best. It's been a minute since I've had a veggie hot dog, but I'd probably go with Big Franks because I think that's usually what I've had.

[00:03:55] Santiago: Anyway, before I leave this topic, I have to say that I am very disappointed with MorningStar for changing the original Grillers recipe. I used to love eating them as-is, just by themselves, but also as a burger, and especially as veggie fajitas. But they are now trash if you ask me. So if anyone from MorningStar happens to listen to this, please do something about it. I know I'm not the only one, I've heard comments from other people that recognized the recipe change and also want it to go back to how it was.

[00:04:34] Santiago: So, anyway, another thing I can think of is not drinking coffee or caffeine in general. This was one point of contention that my mom had and still has to some degree with my dad. He grew up drinking coffee and that is something he hasn't been able to shake.

[00:04:53] Santiago: I'm kind of 50/50, I'll have coffee every now and then, but it's absolutely not a habit for me, still not something that I do regularly. Obviously no alcohol as a kid or even as a young adult, not until I left the church. It's kinda like with coffee, I do enjoy some drinks here and there, but, uh, I'm still not very familiar with all of the different options that are out there. And I've only gone blackout once. One of these days, I'll tell that story.

[00:05:23] Santiago: Another thing I can think of is no dancing, and this is one that I'm very disappointed about. I didn't really care about it growing up, it was nothing that really appealed to me. And I think a big part of that was because I recognized that I didn't know how to do it and probably would have felt awkward trying to do it.

[00:05:43] Santiago: But, it's very disappointing to me, especially having a Latina mom who did grow up dancing and who participated in some really beautiful cultural dances as a teenager. So one of these days, I'm going to start taking lessons and I'll eventually get confident to go out there on the dance floor.

[00:06:04] Santiago: Another big one that I know many Adventists have grown up with is not going to the movies. The first time I ever went to a movie theater, I think I was in middle school. And I actually kind of lied about what I was going to do. This was one of my more, I guess you could say rebellious phases in life, before I went back to being very conservative and very committed.

[00:06:26] Santiago: And this was with a more liberal Adventist, but it was definitely not something that I did often and it's not really something I do today, especially with streaming. I don't know, I don't really feel, I don't really feel like going out to the theater that often.

[00:06:40] Santiago: Another big one is no jewelry. Later in this episode, you're going to hear Abby, Ami and Alex talk about their parents having engagement watches instead of engagement rings. And this is something that my parents also did. I don't know about you and your parents and your family, but in my case, definitely no jewelry of any kind.

[00:07:03] Santiago: My mother grew up Catholic, so she did have her ears pierced as a girl, but any sort of jewelry was definitely frowned upon in our household, and I would say probably in our church as well. It's not something I really noticed that often. Since then my brother and I have developed a healthy appreciation for jewelry, I've got a couple of necklaces and a couple of rings I'll wear here and there.

[00:07:27] Santiago: Another big one was no tattoos. That is one that my mom is still very much against and I do have one tattoo so far. She saw it by accident shortly before I told her that I had left the church and religion in general. So that's another fun story I can tell in the future. And even though I've only got one so far, I'm definitely looking forward to getting more.

[00:07:52] Santiago: So those are some of the things that come to mind in terms of everyday life. Obviously as an Adventist and as a Christian, we prayed and we had daily devotionals. There were definitely periods of my life where I was more or less committed to these things. And that's kind of what I was alluding to in the first episode where I said I wasn't always the most spiritual person. I definitely became more spiritual and leaned in further into that right as I started to deconstruct and eventually deconvert.

[00:08:23] Santiago: But I definitely remember praying before every meal and often praying before we would go drive somewhere. The funny thing to me is one of the last times I remember my mom praying before she was going to drive us somewhere, she was backing out of our driveway as our neighbor was backing out of their driveway.

[00:08:42] Santiago: And her prayer was just long enough, I kid you not, her prayer was just long enough so that by the time she finished and started backing up, the neighbor started backing up at the same time and they ended up hitting each other. So, yeah if anything, she would have actually avoided that accident if she hadn't prayed.

Life During the Sabbath Hours

[00:09:05] Santiago: So moving on to life during the Sabbath hours, we always observed Sabbath from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset and one thing I would always tease my mom about is that she insisted on celebrating the New Year at sunset. My brother and I would typically wait until it was midnight, but she always said, 'Hey, the sun has set, it's a new day, it's the new year.' So I don't know, I don't know if any of your parents did that or any of your church members, but that was something I experienced with my mom.

[00:09:41] Santiago: We always had family worship on Friday night and Saturday night. And one of the things I remember about the Sabbath was just this morning rush to get to Sabbath school on time. My dad was a Sabbath school superintendent and a Sabbath school teacher. So he was always kind of stressed out and rushing everyone, which in turn stressed out my mom, which in turn stressed out me and stressed out my brother.

[00:10:09] Santiago: I remember hearing on the radio a more mainstream Christian preacher talking about this idea of the Sabbath and Adventists specifically, and he said 'You know, Sabbath is supposed to be a day of rest, but for many people, it's actually not a day of rest.' And I kind of resonated with that when I heard it because it's true.

[00:10:31] Santiago: For many of us, especially if we had volunteer roles within the church, Sabbath was anything but rest, at least for that morning time and throughout the church service. And then usually it did become literal rest where my parents would be napping. And sometimes I would even be tired enough that I would also take a nap in the afternoon. So, yeah, that's something I definitely don't miss. I love sleeping in now and I wouldn't trade that in for the world.

[00:11:02] Santiago: Obviously on Sabbath, we wouldn't buy things, there was no sports, no TV. One thing I noticed that was a little bit different between me and maybe some more liberal Adventists was this idea of not eating out on the Sabbath as well. I had a more liberal Adventist friend who talked about going to restaurants with their family after church and my mind was blown when I heard that, because I was like, 'Wait, you're buying, you're, you're doing business on Sabbath? You're, you're having other people work for you?'

[00:11:36] Santiago: And of course, the funny thing is, is if you've ever been to an Adventist campground or Adventist school, obviously there's jobs that have to be done around the clock. And people still gotta eat on Sabbath morning and for lunch and dinner. Even within Adventist institutions, there were people buying and working on Sabbath. I was kind of sheltered from that, so it was, it was an interesting thing for me to see how some Adventists had a little bit more of a different view on that.

[00:12:10] Santiago: For that reason we'd usually have lunch at home. Sometimes we'd stay for potluck, but I've noticed over the years that my family is kind of introverted, so we didn't always stay. And that leads me into talking a little bit about community and this idea of a church family.

Adventist Community

[00:12:29] Santiago: My church was a pretty multicultural church because it's on the West Coast and because we were in a somewhat larger city and so, I definitely appreciated that about growing up in that church. But for me, the idea of church family was kind of always a bit superficial.

[00:12:49] Santiago: Even to this day, I only have one person at my old church that I would consider a true friend and that I'm still in touch with, and knows about my deconversion. But despite that, I would definitely say that my church was very friendly.

[00:13:05] Santiago: I remember as a teenager going to movie night and game night at different people's houses. We would usually get invited to people's homes for that, or for lunch after Sabbath. And we would also invite people to our home sometimes.

[00:13:19] Santiago: One time in particular that stands out is there were some visitors to our church that came from another state. And because they were new in town, they didn't know anybody, they didn't have anywhere to go, we invited them over for lunch and they stayed for hours.

[00:13:38] Santiago: I was playing video games after sunset with their son and we became pretty good friends. And at one point I even traveled and spent part of the summer at their home. So I just remember them being very friendly, very hospitable people. And that's one of the things I appreciate about Adventism and this concept of community. There are some pretty close friendships that you're able to make, and assuming that there's more there than just your common religious beliefs and worldview, those are some friendships that you'll carry for life.

[00:14:14] Santiago: But I've got to say that I've also been able to find that outside of the church. My best friend and his family are very hospitable. I've stayed over at their place multiple times, and I felt just as welcome, if not even more welcome, by them than some of the people that I met in church. So it definitely exists, it may not be as common or you may not find it as often, but it definitely is out there.

[00:14:41] Santiago: And one of the things you'll hear in a bit in Abby and Ami's episode, is that there is a flip side to that, right? If, if you're ostracized and if you're kicked out of the community, all of that warmth and friendship that was there is then suddenly taken away from you. So hopefully going forward, we're all able to make friendships and connections that aren't like that.

[00:15:04] Santiago: The last thing I'll say about community is one aspect that's pretty near and dear to my heart, still, and that is Pathfinders. I know not everyone had a good experience within Pathfinders, but I personally had a very positive experience. Some of my favorite memories from my time in the Adventist church were the weekend trips, local camporees, and even Oshkosh. I've been to Oshkosh, I want to say at least twice, and those were all overwhelmingly positive experiences.

[00:15:40] Santiago: Again, I want to recognize that not everyone had a positive experience and some people may have even been hurt during their time in Pathfinders. But for me, it was definitely a time of growth and it gave me an opportunity to connect with people outside of my local church.

[00:16:01] Santiago: One of the things that kind of bothered me a little bit here and there was recognizing that the number of youth in my old church was pretty small, so the opportunity to make friends was just not as big as it might be in larger churches or cities that had a bigger population of Adventists.

[00:16:21] Santiago: So I just remember always getting really excited when I had a chance to go and meet people from other parts of the state and other parts of the country, and you know, during Oshkosh, even other parts of the world. I remember seeing people running around with flags from all these different countries and it really made it feel like you were part of this big global movement.

[00:16:47] Santiago: And if I'm being honest, that is something that I still think is, at its core a nice idea if you're able to separate that from all of the harm that has been done by the Adventist church and continues to be done by the Adventist church.

[00:17:04] Santiago: So, those are just a couple of my thoughts on Adventist culture. I know this is very high level, we'll definitely dive in deeper to some of these topics later on. And again, this is a limited perspective. I am a straight guy and I recognize that at least for me personally, I absolutely had an easier time growing up in my church and growing up Adventist than I'm sure a lot of other folks did.

[00:17:31] Santiago: So just as a quick reminder, I want to give you an opportunity that if you've had a different experience, or just any story you want to share in general, I'd love to hear it, I'd love to amplify your voice and your experience. So you can see the show notes or the website to submit a written story, you can see the phone number on the website or show notes if you want to leave a voicemail, and you can also send me a written DM or a voice message on Instagram.

[00:18:00] Santiago: On that note, I'm going to turn it over to Abby and Ami's episode, so you can hear their experiences and perspectives on Adventist culture.

[00:18:09]

Abby, Ami, and Alex on SDA Culture

[00:18:14] Abby: Hi, this is Abby!

[00:18:15] Ami: And this is Ami

[00:18:17] Abby: and...

[00:18:18] Alex: I'm Alex.

[00:18:19] Abby: And you are listening to the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast. This is our third episode, and it is August 11.

[00:18:25] Ami: It's April 11.

[00:18:26] Abby: It's April 11, is it?

[00:18:27] Ami: No, it's April 13.

[00:18:29] Abby: It's a month that begins with an "A."

[00:18:31] Alex: I was gonna say, you guys are both wrong.

[00:18:32] Ami: We're way off base.

[00:18:33] Abby: I'm tired, I'm about to leave for a trip. We have Alex here with us this week, who is Ami's husband, I think I'm allowed to say that.

[00:18:40] Ami: Yeah.

[00:18:40] Alex: I thought we were gonna keep it more anonymous than that. Can't I just be a strange guy?

[00:18:44] Ami: We'll put a dot over your face.

[00:18:47] Alex: Okay.

[00:18:47] Abby and Ami: [Laughing]

[00:18:48] Abby: We'll just have a beep every time we say your name. 'This is beep!'

[00:18:53] Abby: So today, this will be a little bit shorter episode, but we're, we wanna talk to those of you who may be listening to our podcast who maybe were not raised Adventist. Maybe you're coming from some other fundamentalist faith, like say, Jehovah's Witness or Mormonism, and you don't know what we mean by "Adventist lifestyle."

[00:19:12] Abby: Sometimes I have been known to say I'm a cultural Adventist the same way some people are cultural Jews, but I don't believe it anymore. But I still have some instincts that were like hardwired into me at a young age, so we are gonna talk about what that means.

[00:19:27] Ami: Yeah. I think that, especially when I was younger and I was an Adventist, a lot of times when you told someone you were an Adventist, they would say, 'Oh, you guys are all vegetarian, right?' You know, there would sort of be a conception of...

[00:19:41] Abby: It's confusing. You're like, 'Well, if it chews the cud and has the split hoof...

[00:19:47] Ami: You are allowed to eat meat, but some people are gonna kind of treat you like you are not quite as...

[00:19:54] Abby: You're not as holy.

[00:19:55] Ami: pure and holy as if you did not eat meat.

[00:19:57] Abby: But you can be part of the club. It's sort of like first class versus economy class.

[00:20:04] Alex: Wow, I never thought about it like that.

[00:20:06] Abby: I knew Adventists who were really militant about it and like, acted like you weren't a real Adventist if you ate meat or...

[00:20:14] Alex: My parents very much were, my mom more than my dad. He actually now probably, I think he eats meat. My mom was very much like, 'You can eat meat if you really want to, but don't get used to it 'cause they're not gonna have that in heaven.'

[00:20:28] Abby: [Laughing] Yes, and my mom would be 'At the end of time the animals will be really diseased. And so you shouldn't get a taste for this because in the end times...'

[00:20:36] Alex: Wow, that's getting a little...

[00:20:37] Ami: We are gonna have to have an end of times episode at some point.

[00:20:39] Abby: In the end times we will have lots of Worthington available, and so...

[00:20:43] Alex: A lot of MorningStar Farms in the end times.

[00:20:48] Ami: A lot of Adventists are vegetarian, but the thing that is actually a rule is similar to the dietary restrictions that Jews follow.

[00:21:01] Alex: One of the fundamental beliefs of Adventism is the health message, right, so it's based on healthy living, temperance, no smoking, no drinking, no...

[00:21:09] Ami: We went through phases where caffeine was not allowed.

[00:21:12] Abby: Caffeine...

[00:21:12] Alex: Mustard was one that we weren't allowed to have...

[00:21:14] Abby: Mustard, vinegar...

[00:21:16] Alex: Anything strong, yeah.

[00:21:18] Abby: Yeah, so the dietary restrictions are meat and, specifically no biblically unclean meats, just like if you were a Jew, like from Leviticus 20, I think it is. And then you're not supposed to drink caffeine, you're not supposed to drink alcohol, you're not supposed to smoke. And then like, if you wanna get really picky, Ellen White does say that cheese is not a food fit for human consumption.

[00:21:38] Alex: Really?

[00:21:38] Abby: You wouldn't know that in the cafeteria at Southern.

[00:21:40] Ami: ...phases where we weren't allowed to eat cheese, I've eaten pizza with no cheese on it.

[00:21:45] Abby: There you go.

[00:21:45] Alex: Was it any dairy?

[00:21:47] Ami: Uh, yeah, dairy went through phases.

[00:21:50] Ami: [Sirens] We live near the fire department.

[00:21:52] Abby: Let's see, the other weird ones that people don't think about are vinegar, so mustard has vinegar in it, so we're not supposed to eat...

[00:21:57] Alex: I thought it was specifically something with mustard because I remember...

[00:22:01] Abby: Maybe it is. Pepper is another one, it's supposed hard on your stomach, but like, these are things that I don't want to give the listener the impression that all Adventists follow these rules. It is a hierarchical thing. You don't get kicked out of the church for breaking dietary rules. If you eat an unclean meat, people will definitely look down on you and kind of treat you like you're not really an Adventist.

[00:22:23] Alex: It's not a sin to eat...

[00:22:25] Abby: Yes, that is treated as a sin. All these other things are sort of gradations. So I never had caffeine until I was 21 and in the mission field and was, um, exposed tea in Taiwan because I was missionary and couldn't say no without being rude. And it was lovely and delicious, and so... [Laughing]

[00:22:45] Alex: Well to be fair, it wasn't the caffeine that was delicious.

[00:22:48] Abby: It was!

[00:22:48] Alex: That's specifically the flavor of the tea.

[00:22:51] Abby: It was, and the, oh... Pearl milk tea with a little, uh, little eyeballs in it, little tapioca snot balls, oh so good.

[00:22:58] Alex: A little caffeine garnish.

[00:23:00] Abby: Yeah, it's just, uh, it's just, it's wonderful. I like caffeine. I do drink now, but I'm not very good at it as I think these two can testify.

[00:23:09] Alex: Yeah, so it's, anyway, it's an overarching health message, not necessarily... like, I think a lot of people that I knew thought that the church was super legalistic. Super like, saved by works alone kind of ideology, which that's, that wasn't the case.

[00:23:25] Abby: To be fair, there was, you were supposed to drink a lot of water, you're supposed to get enough sleep... There's all these other things that, I mean, it really is healthy not to smoke, it really is healthy not to be an alcoholic. Like it's not...

[00:23:36] Alex: Well, there's all these studies that say that Adventists live longer than... than the other segments of the population, that are legit because of the health message of the church.

[00:23:44] Abby: Yeah, yeah.

[00:23:45] Alex: But to be fair, I think the ones they're testing aren't the ones that are eating all of the...

[00:23:49] Abby: 100% carbohydrate diet?

[00:23:52] Alex: Well, the ones that aren't specifically eating canned veggie meat.

[00:23:54] Abby: All the Worthing... Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Worthington high sodium products.

[00:23:57] Alex: The MSG-in-a-can,

[00:23:59] Abby: The MSG-in-a-can...

[00:24:00] Alex: the soy, whatever, the MorningStar Farms...

[00:24:04] Ami: McKay's Seasoning...

[00:24:05] Alex: McKay's Seasoning...

[00:24:07] Abby: General Washington's Broth.

[00:24:08] Ami: Oh my god.

[00:24:09] Abby: If you're a regular person out there, you probably know some weird person that cooks vegan or vegetarian with special ingredients they have to go find in a strange store. All of us grew up around that stuff all the time, like that was normal...

[00:24:22] Alex: It was a staple.

[00:24:22] Ami: Very, very normal and those foods were very normal.

[00:24:25] Abby: I never had meat until I was in my mid twenties, I was drinking caffeine before I had meat. So when I first tasted chicken, I was like, 'Oh, the texture of this is all wrong, this tastes nothing like Chicketts.'

[00:24:37] Alex: Oh my god.

[00:24:37] Abby: Like, 'It sticks to my teeth, weird!' You know, and still, like veggie meat is what is like the normal thing to me, and meat is sort of the exotic, odd thing.

[00:24:47] Alex: I don't, I don't disagree.

[00:24:48] Ami: We went back and forth. My parents ate meat when I was very small, and my dad always did, but when I was really young, my parents ate meat and my dad always drank coffee and you know, all that stuff. But again, we've already discussed that he was going to hell, you know?

[00:25:06] Ami: When I was... I actually became a vegetarian, my brother and I did, when were probably like six or eight years old because we started raising cows. So we actually became vegetarian, not through Adventism, but through being appalled at the idea of killing our pet cows.

[00:25:24] Abby: Which is completely reasonable, and to be fair, like, I've read a lot of Ellen White and she actually does address the animal cruelty issue. I have never heard an actual Adventist cite that...

[00:25:33] Ami: That's not usually a thing, it sometime...

[00:25:36] Abby: But she does, she actually does say...

[00:25:37] Ami: 'There won't be any killing for food in heaven,' but not so much a 'It is cruel to kill and eat an animal here on earth.'

[00:25:45] Abby: Yeah.

[00:25:45] Ami: But then of course, like as a teenager...

[00:25:47] Alex: 'They don't have souls, why would we care?'

[00:25:50] Ami: [Laughing] We started eating meat again when I was a teenager and then I eventually became a vegetarian again after I left Adventism. But that's a, kind of a weird...

[00:26:02] Abby: You know how to do it.

[00:26:03] Ami: Yeah, it was never that strange to me because that lifestyle was familiar.

[00:26:08] Abby: Every ex-Adventist I know, there is still some form of veggie meat that they like, like...

[00:26:14] Ami: FriChik.

[00:26:15] Abby: MorningStar Breakfast Patties, I eat them almost every morning.

[00:26:18] Alex: So good.

[00:26:19] Ami: They are really good, the maple flavored ones...

[00:26:21] Abby: They're delicious.

[00:26:22] Alex: Oh my goodness, the maple flavor ones are newer, you know, I'm assuming, didn't have those when we were kids, but, oh my god, so good.

[00:26:27] Abby: And Chicketts, I like Chicketts..

[00:26:29] Alex: I've never, what, a "Chickett?"

[00:26:31] Abby: They're, they come...

[00:26:32] Alex: Is that FriChik? That's not FriChik...

[00:26:34] Abby: It's not FriChik, they come frozen in a, um, bullet shape like a giant suppository shaped thing, and, um...

[00:26:41] Alex: You're supposed to stick it in your butt?

[00:26:43] Abby: Yeah, exactly! It's, I know it sounds strange, but they're delicious. No, uh, you...

[00:26:47] Alex: Huh, you and I are very different people.

[00:26:49] Abby: You let it thaw and then you bread them and fry them, and they're...

[00:26:53] Ami: Oh, is it more crunchy, gluten-like?

[00:26:56] Abby: Yeah, just a little salt and a little, um, batter and then you...

[00:26:59] Alex: No, if it doesn't come ready to eat out of a can and swimming in its own sauce, I'm out.

[00:27:02] Abby: You do have to do some preparation, but this was like a family... this was something we ate a lot on Sabbath afternoons, and I was the one who did the frying, cause I could get them like really crispy around the edges. So it was a little bit of an art and a little bit of a...

[00:27:14] Ami: My mom actually still makes homemade gluten.

[00:27:18] Abby: Homemade gluten is good, it's the same kind of stuff.

[00:27:21] Ami: It's the same basic concept, a gluten-based meat substitute, but she, she makes it herself, which is a really kind of elaborate process. Um, but yeah, that's something that I grew up eating and I kind of, every now and then I'll go home and she'll make it, and it's really good to me.

[00:27:38] Abby: Every now and then I, I'm like, 'I need to have some Chicketts.'

[00:27:42] Ami: Yeah.

[00:27:43] Alex: That's something culturally, right?

[00:27:45] Abby: Exactly.

[00:27:45] Alex: That's a cultural thing that I think a lot of people could identify with. Maybe not in those weird details, but they understand going back to home and getting a meal that only your family cooks. Only our family, in that way, was somewhat extended 'cause we had potlucks at church and there was always veggie meat and there was always haystacks, and there was...

[00:28:05] Ami: Cottage cheese loaf, or Special K loaf...

[00:28:08] Abby: My cousin's mother, their family was particularly attached to that. And it was good, like, the way they made it, but like that's their...

[00:28:15] Ami: I love that and I still make it fairly regularly, we still eat that. Like I said, we're vegetarian now again and I love that, and I do still make it. We should put a recipe on.

[00:28:28] Abby: We totally should! Oh, we should, okay, we're, we're gonna put some vegetarian, Adventist vegetarian recipes. When I went to Taiwan, I encountered Buddhist vegetarians, and that was really interesting because they had their own veggie meats and veggie recipes that were completely different from the ones I grew up with and I had never been around.

[00:28:46] Alex: The difference is those ones were satanic.

[00:28:47] Abby: It's true, it's true, there was a little... that was in one of the recipes that I got. It's down at the bottom, was like...

[00:28:52] Alex: According to my mom, that would be satanic.

[00:28:54] Abby: One teaspoon of Satan's jizz was in there at the bottom of the recipe.

[00:28:58] Ami: It's got a real tangy flavor.

[00:29:00] Alex: It's like, tastes like watered down bleach.

[00:29:03] Abby and Ami: [Laughing]

[00:29:03] Alex: I mean, I don't know what jizz tastes like, what? What are we talking about? What is this, a podcast?

[00:29:10] Abby: Keep talking Alex!

[00:29:12] Alex: I'm trying, trying to pass the torch here, guys! Let's move along!

[00:29:17] Abby: So, so, um, food is one thing.

[00:29:21] Ami: Food is a big one. Another thing I would say is probably the concept of modesty, and taken to not just modest dress in terms of not, you know, wearing short skirts and low cut blouses or something, but modesty in terms of... When I was younger in particular, Adventists didn't wear jewelry. And so, for instance, I'm 35 years old and I don't have pierced ears.

[00:29:45] Abby: Yeah, I tried and you know, that's a big one.

[00:29:47] Ami: And I've never had pierced ears.

[00:29:49] Abby: When I meet Adventists, ex-Adventists, in the workplace, I have like a sixth sense for them. You'll toss out a little bit of a question about where you went to college or something and see if they bite, 'cause like, I'm usually right too. Like, you just, you just sense them. But one of the things you notice is very little or no jewelry. I always wanted a, um, not tragus piercing, the, the one up here, it's a cartilage piercing.

[00:30:09] Ami: At the top of your ear?

[00:30:11] Abby: At the top of your ear, and I always wanted one cause I thought they were really cool. And I, I got one a few years ago and it never would heal. And I had it for about a year and I thought it was really cute and it was also incredibly painful and never healed.

[00:30:21] Abby: So I was like, well, 'God's punishing me, apparently, for piercing my ear.' Anyway, it, but it was a source of like, like, it was really weird cause my parents never acknowledged that it existed. Like I could tell they were upset about it, but then they never wanted to talk about it. And like, the entire time we would do like family stuff and everything and they would never, like, it just didn't exist.

[00:30:40] Alex: That's how, that's how my tattoos were for a while.

[00:30:42] Abby: Yeah!

[00:30:42] Alex: Yeah, my tattoos were like that. My parents were like, 'Don't...' I heard, I heard my father say to my mom 'Don't talk about it...' I'm like, 'Well, I mean, I'm happy to talk about it with you guys,' but yeah. So obviously, having tattoos is a taboo like jewelry, yeah.

[00:30:57] Ami: Yeah, the thing about jewelry was, and I don't think that it's a thing now, I think that most Adventists now probably are not really restricted about that.

[00:31:07] Alex: Well, our parents' generations didn't even exchange wedding rings.

[00:31:11] Abby: Yeah, at Southern, it's still a thing on campus, like it's a point of contention, 'cause I hear about it every now and then. Now you can wear wedding rings, I don't think that's such a big deal.

[00:31:21] Alex: Yeah, that's not the taboo that it was, but my, but our parents' generation literally exchanged watches instead of wedding rings.

[00:31:27] Abby: Engagement watches.

[00:31:28] Ami: Well, it was funny because you were, the problem with jewelry, again, was this idea of modesty and that you were not being frivolous with money. You know, you were supposed to use your money to help others and this kind of thing. And so if you're spending many hundreds of dollars on jewelry, that's wasteful and it is showing off and that's bad. But you know, you also could drive around in your Lexus or something. You know, I mean, it's a weird, it's one of those things where, hypocrisy was pretty...

[00:31:57] Abby: Was rank, yeah, no one ask you how much your clothes cost or how much your freaking engagement watch cost. If it was functional, it was okay. If it wasn't, that was kind of...

[00:32:06] Ami: If it was just decorative, it was not.

[00:32:08] Abby: Yeah.

[00:32:08] Alex: There was a culture of inventing these weird rules, and then figuring out a way to skirt these weird rules.

[00:32:14] Abby: Yes, Adventists, and I suspect most people from a fundamentalist background, are masters of justification...

[00:32:21] Alex: Rationalization.

[00:32:22] Abby: Rationalization, yes! We can rationalize at an Olympic level.

[00:32:30] Ami: It's really, pretty spectacular.

[00:32:32] Alex: Well, okay, so we talked about some of the kind of weird cultural things, what were some, what were the good cultural things that I think that we took away from that religion that, that are culturally part of us, but that aren't so negative?

[00:32:41] Ami: To me, a thing that I still sort of cling to a little bit is I am a huge proponent of the idea of a day of rest. And so obviously, I don't follow all of the keeping the Sabbath rules, which we'll definitely have to talk about in more detail.

[00:32:56] Abby: Yeah, that's its own episode.

[00:32:57] Ami: But, I really love the concept of a day that is devoted to not working around the house, not, you know... Even not the sort of typical day-to-day entertainment of watching TV or something, but that you really set aside to be with your family.

[00:33:17] Abby: To be bored on a massive...

[00:33:18] Ami: Well, not to be bored, but to be, you know, because obviously I don't do things that are boring to me.

[00:33:23] Abby: I know, I agree and I have a very hard time doing that without the sin imperative and I agree, it's good for you if you can make yourself do it.

[00:33:31] Ami: But yeah, a day, we still pretty much on Saturdays, we still wake up and we go, like, we walk downtown and get breakfast, we spend the morning with, you know, our child and...

[00:33:46] Alex: Sometimes we'll watch a TED talk.

[00:33:47] Ami: Sometimes we watch TED talk.

[00:33:49] Alex: Just to get our preaching in.

[00:33:50] Abby: I should come spend Sabbath with you guys sometime.

[00:33:52] Alex: You really should, it's, we...

[00:33:53] Ami: We don't do the same things that we would do on an other day that we're home together. It's not in a formal way, but just... I think we talked about cleaning the house on Friday afternoon...

[00:34:05] Abby: So to be clear to you guys listening, Sabbath for Adventists is from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday. And so if you grew up in this religion, like you're acutely aware of when the sun sets at various times of the year, because there were very few things you were allowed to do on the Sabbath. Some of which were fun and some of which we didn't do at other times, but still it was like, like you did nothing all afternoon and then like you were waiting till like 5:32 or whenever the sun set.

[00:34:30] Alex: Which they published in the church bulletin.

[00:34:32] Abby: Which they published in the church bulletin and then...

[00:34:33] Alex: So you knew exactly when boredom was gonna start.

[00:34:36] Abby: You had some kind of a party on Saturday night. So like you were very, very, staid and good for 24 hours from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday. And then often, we had some sort of a game night, I mean it wasn't a party by anyone else's standards, but for an Adventist...

[00:34:49] Ami: Movie night, game night.

[00:34:51] Abby: Movie night, game night, you know, something fun, which is ironic 'cause Sabbath was supposed to be special, but it was always like...

[00:34:57] Alex: Countdown till it's over.

[00:34:58] Abby: Countdown till it's over, then we had a party and it was finally...

[00:35:01] Alex: 'God, can't wait until we get outta this fucking Sabbath, finally watch some goddamn TV.' And obviously, we grew up not knowing what Saturday morning cartoons were, which was a weird thing. All of my friends would talk about watching cartoons on Saturday morning and I'd be like, 'What the fuck are you talk... I don't know what that is, it sounds so awesome.'

[00:35:20] Ami: But I do like the idea of a day of rest. I do think that that's a positive thing that I took from...

[00:35:25] Alex: Well, I took it as I, I've, you know, transformed it maybe to get away from a day of rest, to maybe going to a day where you just kind of are allowed to just let it be where you don't have to fill it with a bunch of tasks. You just kind of, it's kind of like your freebie.

[00:35:41] Alex: You know, your freebie of the week where you can just chill the fuck out if you want to, or you can work if you want to get stuff, okay, we'll do whatever you want, but it's a day that's just kind of a freebie.

[00:35:48] Ami: You don't have to feel obliged to get something done. You don't have to feel, if you spend the whole day in your underwear playing video games, you don't have to feel bad about it at the end of the day.

[00:35:58] Abby: I think that that's very mentally healthy and... Yeah, it's hard for me to...

[00:36:04] Alex: And that's definitely something that I feel like from my childhood that I've grown with and never rejected that concept of having 'No, that day is, that's mine.' That's, we can, we can blow that one, we can do whatever we want with it. And so that's something that was positive culturally, out of that.

[00:36:22] Alex: I think another positive cultural thing that I brought out of Adventism that's maybe not unique to Adventism, but probably universal to any small congregation, church...

[00:36:33] Abby: Any cult...

[00:36:33] Alex: Any cult? Yeah, sure, is the sense of like, extended family.

[00:36:41] Abby: Okay, yeah.

[00:36:42] Alex: The notion, the notion that there are people that exist outside of your blood relatives that are your family. That's probably not unique to Seventh-day Adventism, but I think the way...

[00:36:51] Ami: Growing up in a small community...

[00:36:53] Alex: Growing up in a small community, but specifically, a community that has such an impression of being ostracized from the rest of the world, like we had such an "us versus them" mentality, that we really remained close-knit, even not just amongst our own congregations, but amongst the religion in general. Like if you met a Seventh-day Adventist that wasn't part of your church, you still had this closeness and this kinship.

[00:37:15] Abby: And all these weird things in common.

[00:37:17] Alex: You had all this weird shared history, right? You probably knew a lot of the same people. And I think because of the conference system, you really did get the same sermons every year, so you, you had the same brainwashing.

[00:37:27] Abby: The same Sabbath school lesson, the same Junior Guide, the same Little Friend.

[00:37:31] Ami: Consequently, we all have the same trauma.

[00:37:34] Alex: Yeah!

[00:37:35] Abby: I have very mixed feelings about that 'cause you're right. Like your "church family," I'm using air quotes, is a concept that I don't think everyone gets exposed to and I think is really kind of neat 'cause it does, it gives you something in common with people that you would not normally befriend.

[00:37:53] Abby: People that, that you don't share many other interests with. But at the same time, I know people, people in my family, who never learned how to make friends because they always had the church family. I remember when I first kind of got out of it, realizing 'I am socially handicapped.' Like, 'I need to learn how do you make friends outside of an Adventist system?'

[00:38:12] Alex: Yeah, that's obviously the flip side of that coin. I think the positive thing that I took from it was the concept of being open to being intimate with people outside of your family circle.

[00:38:26] Abby: And that is valuable.

[00:38:26] Alex: So it's like, it's an openness to the intimacy, which is maybe a strange way to phrase it, but, but I think that's where, that's certainly where that came from.

[00:38:34] Ami: I can remember my parents inviting people over, complete strangers, somebody who came to church and didn't know anyone, and inviting them over for Sabbath lunch.

[00:38:42] Abby: That's cool.

[00:38:43] Ami: You know, that kind of openness to intimacy with people that you don't really know. And that is a good thing, right?

[00:38:49] Alex: Well, like I said, I mean obviously there's a flip side...

[00:38:52] Abby: It certainly can be...

[00:38:53] Alex: It's a coin and there's two sides of it, and so obviously, you know, one being very dark and the, the crippling nature that it causes on the one hand...

[00:39:01] Abby: I was in my mid twenties before I ever had any close friends that were not Adventist. I can remember making really stupid social missteps at work because, in my previous world, and I'm, I'm not a dumb person, I don't think, but like in my previous world, there were certain assumptions that you could make. There were certain ways of thinking or jokes that everyone would get and like, that's not true in the wider world.

[00:39:24] Alex: No, no, no, that's a habit that like, yeah, that we had to, that we had to bounce out of and overcome. But the positive that I took away from that negative was this notion of being able to be open to people and being able to have an extended family.

[00:39:40] Alex: I think a lot of my friends see the types of friendships that we have here, and I mean at this table even, and friendships that we have out, you know, with other people. And a lot of people that I know, like coworkers and stuff, don't have that.

[00:39:53] Abby: Mmm, that's true.

[00:39:54] Alex: And they don't understand it.

[00:39:56] Abby: I think your personality, you are also really good at making friends with people. Like I've made more friends at you guys' house than I have anywhere other than like, the podcasting sphere, that's a hobby that I have in common with a lot of people so I make friends there, and I make friends from work. But like, you guys bring people here for Friday nights.

[00:40:16] Ami: That's Alex.

[00:40:17] Abby: I know, I know, that's what I mean, like you are good at that.

[00:40:19] Alex: Well, I think that's something that, that I liked about that...

[00:40:23] Ami: But you feel like you've learned that...

[00:40:25] Abby: Culturally from that culture? That makes sense, there's a very open side to that culture. I think my family did not engage as much in that.

[00:40:34] Ami: But you have a closed group, which is, can be very warm and comforting when you're in it, but you also have the feeling that you can be put out of it, which is not...

[00:40:44] Alex: Right, I mean, like I said, that's, there's obviously, there's obviously some serious negative issues about that. But if we're talking about the good things culturally that I think came from that upbringing, I think that has to be mentioned.

[00:40:56] Ami: We'll have to talk later about some of the other weird Adventist things like how you didn't go to the movies or, you know? There are a lot of 'em...

[00:41:05] Abby: Don't know how to dance...

[00:41:06] Ami: Oh, we didn't even mention not dancing.

[00:41:09] Abby: Or not moving rhythmically in any way.

[00:41:12] Ami: We'll have to talk more about weird Adventist lifestyle...

[00:41:15] Abby: But yeah, there are definitely things that, that I think are positive and we'll talk about those more too, I'm sure. And you'll see Alex again.

[00:41:24] Alex: Yeah, whenever you guys want me around.

[00:41:26] Abby: Okay we'll talk more later, goodbye!

Guest Interviews

[00:41:33] Ami: Do you have a favorite veggie meat?

[00:41:36] Guest 1: I actually like Chicketts. I actually bought some a couple days ago and, uh, I remember when I, I actually worked at the store at camp meeting. And, uh, the samples are what sustained me.

[00:41:53] Guest 2: Um, I love Wham.

[00:41:57] Ami: I've got a few people voting for Wham.

[00:41:59] Guest 2: Yes, I like Wham. And we, when we lived in Los Angeles and would go visit friends that lived in Loma Linda, we loved going to the Loma Linda market there and we called it "Veggie Disneyland." 'Cause we'd just go in and there's like rows and rows of all these veggie meats and it's just the weirdest looking store because, there's no like, real meat, and none of the products are normal products in the aisles. They're just all these canned Big Franks, canned Linketts, canned FriChik...

[00:42:33] Ami: Sounds magical.

[00:42:34] Guest 2: [Laughing] Yes, it is quite! And then the frozen area you go through and it's like the big, huge rolls of the turkey, oh! Turkey, Turkey, Turkey, Turkey, Turkey Roll.

[00:42:43] Ami: I changed my answer.

[00:42:44] Guest 2: Yes, Roasted Turkey Roll, that's gotta be it.

[00:42:47] Ami: So good.

[00:42:48] Guest 2: And so we would go out to this store and just, we go crazy and load up with these veggie meats and take 'em back over to the heathen land, Hollywood, you know? So they have a section, this little like, refrigerator of prepared sandwiches and we would go in there and get these Wham sandwiches.

[00:43:09] Guest 2: It's so embarrassing to say the name to anybody that doesn't know, like 'I'm gonna have a Wham sandwich.'

[00:43:17] Guest 3: That sounds like it's George Michael dance off.

[00:43:20] Guest 2: It's so funny, like I didn't, I had never given this...

[00:43:24] Ami: Sounds like an 80's fantasy: "I'm gonna be the filling in a Wham sandwhich!"

[00:43:28] Guest 2: I'm gonna have a Wham sandwich!

[00:43:30] Guest 4: As a once vegetarian and now meat eater, I will say that I still cannot get enough of the MorningStar Buffalo Chicken Tenders.

[00:43:37] Ami: I've never had them.

[00:43:39] Guest 4: They're so good!

[00:43:40] Guest 5: No, no, I hate them.

[00:43:42] Guest 4: I love them. Also, the MorningStar Breakfast Patties, the, the little ones, those are really, really good. And then if you're trying to make anything with them, like a meat type dish, like meatloaf for any of that stuff, a combination of both the MorningStar Veggie Crumbles and the Mexican store's texturized vegetable protein is a perfect combination.

[00:44:05] Ami: That's good advice.

[00:44:05] Guest 4: You can only get it the Spanish... The Mexican restaurants, the...

[00:44:08] Ami: Like the market or whatever.

[00:44:10] Guest 4: The little Mexican markets. It's so good, yeah, the dried protein is awesome and then you soak it in water with whatever spices you're gonna cook.

[00:44:17] Ami: Remember doing that as a kid, they call it TVP.

[00:44:20] Guest 4: Yeah, TVP! Like, you mix that with the MorningStar stuff 'cause that stuff's expensive, and then you can make like meatloaf.

[00:44:28] Guest 6: Store bought or homemade?

[00:44:32] Ami: Either one.

[00:44:33] Guest 6: Uh, my favorite homemade is a connie burger and my favorite store bought is Wham, on a huge log.

[00:44:42] Ami: Uh, follow up question, what is your favorite veggie hotdog?

[00:44:47] Guest 6: I just wanna stick a Big Frank in my mouth.

[00:44:50] Ami: [Laughing]

[00:44:51] Guest 7: Yeah, my favorite store bought veggie meat is FriChik. I'll take it right outta the can, I'll take it in a dish. My favorite veggie hotdog is obviously, and this is the correct choice for everyone, is Veja-Links.

[00:45:08] Guest 8: I'm gonna start with hotdogs because that's obviously the wrong choice. Linketts are the best and everybody knows that.

[00:45:14] Guest 7: Bullshit!

[00:45:14] Guest 8: It's a universal fact, Linketts are the best.

[00:45:16] Guest 7: Bullshit.

[00:45:16] Guest 8: My favorite veggie meat would be, um, FriChik wrapped in Wham, with a skewer going through it into a Breakfast Patty, then just put on top of that Breakfast Links on a bed of Stripples. That would be my favorite.

[00:45:33] Ami: Topped with a little FriChik gravy?

[00:45:35] Guest 8: Sure, and the FriChik's already there, so that would be my single favorite vegetarian meat. And, uh, homemade is disgusting.

[00:45:44] Ami: I disagree with homemade being disgusting. My own Special K Loaf is my favorite

[00:45:49] Guest 6: Oh, that's so good.

[00:45:50] Ami: veggie meat, that's the best.

[00:45:51] Guest 8: Also there's a Griller there somehow, don't leave that out. A Griller's part of that equation.

[00:45:54] Ami: I think I eat Grillers more frequently than any other veggie meat, but I think my favorite is probably a tie between FriChik and the Turkey Log. I love the Turkey Log.

[00:46:04] Guest 8: I like eating the Turkey Log, just, or the Wham log.

[00:46:08] Guest 9: Hmm?

[00:46:09] Ami: What's your favorite veggie meat?

[00:46:12] Guest 9: Swiss Steak, although...

[00:46:14] Group: Oooo!

[00:46:15] Guest 9: It's just really, it's just so expensive, I don't get it often.

[00:46:19] Guest 8: Good choice!

[00:46:19] Ami: You know what, the Swiss Steak are really good, but I've never liked their texture as well as the FriChik texture.

[00:46:26] Guest 9: My favorite hot dog.... Um, I like 'em all, but my favorite, I guess, would be Super Links.

[00:46:32] Guest 7: Super Links? Why wouldn't it just be Linketts?

[00:46:37] Guest 9: Super links are different.

[00:46:38] Ami: He's just trying to be difficult.

[00:46:39] Guest 9: Different texture, different color. They're all different.

[00:46:41] Guest 7: They're like the Big Franks of veggie hotdogs.

[00:46:44] Ami: Except they're small, right? They are basically like a Big Frank, but they're skinny?

[00:46:48] Guest 9: No, Super Links are as big as Big Franks.

[00:46:50] Guest 8: But honestly for like, for delightful joy eating, there is nothing better than a Breakfast Patty.

[00:46:54] Guest 7: Nobody said Leanies.

[00:46:55] Guest 8: Breakfast Patties are the...

[00:46:56] Guest 7: Nobody said Leanies.

[00:46:57] Guest 8: For like taste, quality, and deliciousness, and how much happiness they give me, Breakfast Patties are the winner. Breakfast links are right there with them. They are the same thing, but Breakfast Patties are the be-all end-all.

[00:47:06] Guest 7: Crushed up breakfast patties in, uh, southern gravy.

[00:47:11] Guest 8: Lemme tell you something, hang on real quick, if we're still recording: I love, I eat pork like, like I love real meat. I love all kinds of real meat. And I love sausage, it's so good. But guess what? Breakfast Patties are superior to sausage. It tastes better than sausage, and I love sausage!

[00:47:25] Ami: Except for chorizo, that's an exception. Have you had the maple flavored Breakfast Patties?

[00:47:30] Guest 8: Accidentally bought them last week and uh, they're delicious, but I would rather have original with maple syrup.

[00:47:37] Ami: Mm, fair enough.

[00:47:38] Guest 7: No, I want original, always original.

[00:47:40] Guest 8: No, I've had them years ago, they're better now. Years ago they were bad when they first came out, I swear they changed the recipe. I accidentally bought them literally last week...

[00:47:46] Guest 7: Okay, speaking of changing the recipe, today's FriChik is not the FriChik of my youth, and it is not as good.

[00:47:51] Guest 8: Tastes the same when I...

[00:47:52] Guest 7: No, it is not as good.

[00:47:53] Guest 6: It's not the same.

[00:47:53] Guest 8: Linkett's recipe changed..

[00:47:55] Guest 6: Way denser.

[00:47:57] Ami: What is your favorite veggie meat?

[00:47:59] Guest 9: Like, the Turkey Log things that you put on sandwiches.

[00:48:06] Ami: I love that, too.

[00:48:08] Guest 9: It tastes so good.

[00:48:10] Ami: Do you have a favorite veggie meat?

[00:48:11] Guest 10: Um...

[00:48:13] Ami: Grillers or FriChik or...

[00:48:17] Guest 10: Grillers!

[00:48:20] Ami: You like just the regular Grillers the best?

[00:48:22] Guest 10: Yes.

[00:48:22] Guest 11: We like the Chick Patties.

[00:48:24] Ami: Okay, have you guys had different kinds of veggie hotdogs before? Like Veja-Links, Big Franks, the frozen kind...

[00:48:33] Guest 11: I've had Veja-Links and Big Franks.

[00:48:37] Ami: What's your favorite kind of veggie hotdog?

[00:48:39] Guest 9: Veja-Links.

[00:48:46] Guest 11: [Whispering] Veja-Links!

[00:48:49] Ami: Do you have a favorite?

[00:48:50] Guest 10: [Laughing] Veja-Links!

[00:48:53] Ami: I like the Veja-Links squished up with like, mayonnaise and pickles.

[00:48:57] Guest 11: I like, like, I also like real hotdogs.

Haystacks & Hell Outro

[00:49:00] Santiago: Thanks for listening. If you have a story to share about your Adventist or fundamentalist experience, we'd love to hear it. You can submit stories on our website at hell.bio (that's H E L L dot B I O) or leave us a voicemail at 301-750-8648 and we might feature it in a future episode. Thanks to Abby and Ami for their original podcast audio, and thanks again for listening. We'll see you on the next one!