From Faith & Fear to Freedom: Dee - Pt. 2

Support the Show • Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Dee. We discussed his questioning of Adventism and Christianity in general, Satanic Panic, his evolving perspectives on religion, and having empathy for believers. We also talked about Dee's move to Sweden, his childhood connection to Dr. Ben Carson, and how the Ben Carson on TV is not the same man Dee once knew.

Resources / Topics Mentioned:
Song - I'm Afraid I'll Go to Heaven by Moon Walker
Book - Inside Rock Music (SDA anti-rock propaganda)
Artist - Erykah Badu
Video - Erykah Badu NPR Tiny Desk Concert
Article - Dr. Ben Carson
Video - Carson 1997 National Prayer Breakfast Speech @ 34:53
Video - Carson 2013 National Prayer Breakfast Speech @ 34:10

00:00 Intro
01:05 Part 2 of Dee's Story
02:34 The Historical Jesus
04:42 Personal Tragedy and Realizations
07:34 Why Do People Leave?
13:47 Empathy for Believers
21:41 Segregated Conferences
26:17 Sweden, Racism, and CRT
32:58 Music and Satanic Panic
44:00 Dr. Ben Carson
49:39 Moving to Sweden
54:02 Ethics and Adventism
1:05:37 Closing Thoughts

Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
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Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License

Intro

[00:00:00] Santiago: Welcome to Haystacks and Hell, an ex-Adventist podcast where we tell stories about growing up Seventh-day Adventist, leaving faith behind, and building new, fulfilling lives.

[00:00:17] Hey everyone, I'm your host Santiago and today, I'm excited to share Part 2 of my conversation with Dee. If you haven't already heard Part 1, go back to Season 2 Episode 14. Before anything else, I want to apologize for the long delay between Part 1 and 2. Between work and my personal life, I just haven't made enough time to release two episodes per month like I originally planned.

[00:00:45] That said, the show isn't going anywhere. I have more unreleased interviews coming out and more interviews planned for later this year and early next year. Thanks again to Dee for taking the time to come on the show last year, and share so many stories and insights from his journey. I can't wait for you to hear Part 2.

Part 2 of Dee's Story

[00:01:05] Dee: It was really refreshing when I got out of that. And around that time is when I start to truly question religion itself. Like, Christianity or religion itself. And I would have these conversations that literally were almost impossible within the Seventh-day Adventist thing.

[00:01:25] And, and I, I, I must preface this with, um, I have no real issue with people being Seventh-day Adventists or any religion. If that works for them, I'm all for it. Does it make you less of an asshole? [Laughing] Then I'm all for it. Does it make you think outside of yourself and have empathy for others? I'm all for it. I do not talk about these things from the perspective of a person who's trying to destroy the church or destroy people's personal experience when it comes to this.

[00:02:00] I am speaking my truth and only my truth. But for me, a curious person, it was a false sense of education that I got. It was like a fake education that I got. And I didn't realize how big that was until I realized you could ask any question and you can get an honest answer from a person, or "I don't know." "I'm going to read up on this and come back to you on that." And that's one of the most beautiful things that I experienced out of that.

The Historical Jesus

[00:02:34] Dee: And this guy told me, he started telling me about the historical context of Jesus. And I started reading. I went to my university's library. Read up on the historical context of Jesus and the fact that historians, they agreed a guy existed, and they agreed that some of those things cross referenced with, like, Roman historians and, and like the notes they kept and all that kind of stuff. Most likely meant that it happened in a certain way similar to what certain parts of the story existed.

[00:03:11] So I was like, "Huh." And then I kept reading and kept reading, and I realized like, the story of Jesus' virgin birth, all that kind of stuff, straight up bullshit. And there's, like, mad stories that existed prior to it. Like, lots that were virgin birth, Messiah type person, so on and so forth. And I kept looking, and I was like, "This doesn't make sense." And then I questioned it, but it took me about two years to say it out loud.

[00:03:41] And in that two years, I read more, I asked questions, and I also asked questions with my religious friends to see, what is it that we actually know? And then things would get pushed to the side, or, "I'm not sure about that," or definitive answers that make no sense. And then around 1998, I said it out loud. And it's kinda creepy that it took me so long to be able to say it out loud, but that's what happens when you live in a bubble.

[00:04:17] And when I said it out loud, "Oh, but are you upset with the way that you experience stuff?" Because I was abused as a kid, and all kinds of stuff. And I'm like, "No!" "It doesn't have anything to do with that." "It has to do with, I don't believe the basic premise that a dude who walked around 2,000 years ago was a deity." And if I don't believe that he was a deity, then I cannot be a Christian.

Personal Tragedy and Realizations

[00:04:42] Dee: In '99, my best friend and her little sister were murdered by the father of her then six month old child. And she was my everything. They were my everything. They were the family I'd always wanted, and their family took me in in a way no one else had taken me in. And my heart was broken.

[00:05:05] And they were also Seventh-day Adventists, and I had to go to listen to people talk about, talk to her parents, or their parents, who lost their two children, about how "This is God's way." And "God knows what you can take," and all this other crap. And, and again, her parents are still Seventh-day Adventists. If that works for them, I'm all for it. I cannot even imagine having both my children just gone, you know? But that's not what I realized.

[00:05:36] And what I realized was that I had grown up with this gaze based off of, I started to see what it was that I disliked about the attention that I got with my parents' and little brother's death. What it is, is that you start to represent the fears of someone else. So they're not talking to you with empathy, they're talking to you with fear.

[00:05:59] Because they're like, "Oh, I could never live without my parents." You know, people even do this to me this day. "Oh, I wouldn't be able to survive if I was six years old, if my mom and dad, little brother, died in a car accident, and I was the only person to..." Like, yeah, actually you would, you have no very other options.

[00:06:18] But what you're thinking about is you're thinking about your parents today and your long term relationship of 30, 40 years of being around your parents. And my experience was a different thing, and I had no choice, a six year old's not thinking about suicide. So it's like, I had no choice but just go with the flow, and things worked out, and that's how it works.

[00:06:42] But when I got to see the way that people talked to them, and to me, I realized that there was, not only was I right — for me, not for them. Not only was I right, but I didn't run back to it. Because that's what people's concept is. Because she was 23, and her sister was, our sister was 19, not even 20 when he shot them. And in that concept, you would think that if that was the thing that gave me peace, I would go back to it. I did the opposite. I saw it clearer. And in seeing it clearer, even in my grief, it still wasn't, it didn't change what I had said the year before.

Why Do People Leave?

[00:07:34] Santiago: Right, I think it's so important for people to kind of recognize that because very often we'll see evangelists or pastors or theologians say, "Oh, people are leaving because they're hurt." "People are leaving because they want to sin." "People are leaving because of this or that reason." And I don't deny that maybe some people do leave for that reason.

[00:07:56] Dee: Some people, yeah.

[00:07:57] Santiago: And I, I would even go as far as to say that those can be absolutely valid reasons to leave. But to say that most or all people leave for those reasons, is a complete lie. And we cannot choose what we are going to believe or not believe in, right? You could not choose to not be convinced at that point that you no longer believed in the things taught as a kid.

[00:08:20] Dee: Yeah, it was freeing in a, in a weird way. It was freeing. Again, it did not make me think that I need to sit down with their parents and explain my way of thinking. Whatever works for them, works for them. And it freed me from even judging other people as to what works for them. And it's, uh, it's been 25 years of the same exact questions from people.

[00:08:50] "Why are you leaving?" "Are you rebelling?" And I'm like, like, "I'll be 48 in like a week!" Rebelling against what? Who? I've been on my own for 30 years! What would I rebel against? And I think that the thing, because I'm about to go to my 30th high school reunion. The thing that I think about is like, I mean, my people, the people that are my friends, for the most part, are cool. But there are going to be people, and you know these type that come back in or become more religious in that time, and they're going to ask me the exact word for word same questions my aunts and uncles and, you know, older people ask me all the time. "Well, what about this?" "What about this?"

[00:09:42] And I, I know all the answers, and I kind of want to shake them and be like, "I was there when you learned this information!" Like, "I know just as much as you!" "What do you think you're asking me?" Because what it does is it others you out, and in that othering, they forget you have the same information they do.

[00:10:04] Santiago: Right, right.

[00:10:06] Dee: Like, a lawyer can't argue with another lawyer about the law with the context that they don't know the law. They're still a lawyer, you know, they may not be where you are, but they still know the law. And if you talk to them like they are lesser than a lawyer, you're missing the point. And I find that part frustrating, you know, and then, then people start doing stuff like manipulative things. Like, which I've always heard my whole life, which is like, "Don't you want to see your mom and dad and little brother again?"

[00:10:40] "What?" If we live in a world, let's just say God exists, and through my search for truth, I end up where I am. If that dude is that vindictive, then I don't want to be in heaven. [Laughing] If there's a heaven, you know what I mean? I love my children! They're not going to be perfect their entire lives. I would not have some type of arbitrary rules that would rule them out of my love. I don't care what they do.

[00:11:14] Santiago: I completely agree. I even told my parents, you know, even if the Abrahamic God happened to exist... You know, I grew up as a conservative, fundamentalist Adventist believing that the Bible is inerrant, believing that it is, you know, the inspired Word of God. So taking it at face value, a lot of the stuff in the Old Testament, even some stuff in the New Testament, I'm like, "Man, this is not a loving, moral being." "Even if they existed, I wouldn't want to worship them."

[00:11:46] And I think for some people who cannot accept that there are horrible things... Like, once you stop justifying it and making excuses for it, then you can maybe start to understand why some people, like, would say this, right? Why, why you and I would say this, because I completely agree.

[00:12:05] There's a indie artist that I discovered on YouTube, TikTok, somewhere. And he has a song and the chorus says, "I'm afraid I'll go to heaven." [Laughing] And, and he always, uh, he always does these reels where he pairs it with some politician saying some stupid shit or, or some religious person, you know, advocating for religious control of other people.

[00:12:27] And he's like, "I'm afraid I'll go to heaven if people like you are going to be there," right? Basically the gist of the song is "I don't care where I end up as long as I'm not with you." And I feel that to my core because some of the people that are... I've noticed that Christians who are progressive Christians or who, you know, believe in universalism, this idea that we can all be reconciled one day, they are less concerned with controlling our behavior because their image of God is a God that is very loving and that is ultimately going to restore all of his creation one day.

[00:13:02] And so they're not so worried about the, the details of, "Oh, you're gay?" They don't believe that you're going to burn in hell forever for that, right? But for the people who are Calvinists or who are, you know, fundamentalist Christians who have this view of a God who would separate himself eternally from his creation, despite being the person, being the being that set up the system in the first place... They, I don't know, it's such a, I can't, I used to have that mindset, and I've even heard Kyle say this before, I can't put myself in that mindset anymore.

[00:13:39] Dee: No.

[00:13:40] Santiago: Like, I can't, I can't understand it anymore. I used to at some point, because that's what I believed, but I can't anymore.

Empathy for Believers

[00:13:47] Dee: Well, I would say the thing that I'm able to do is try and have empathy for them, because the argument for you to be back in the church is they're actually worried about you. And this is the thing that we, we have to start to, I think, I think we as a, as like, beings need to start to understand. Not everything, even things that get on your nerves, are about the person pushing you down.

[00:14:20] Like, the tactics may have been taught by manipulative people, and so it comes off as manipulative. But when I say I'm a little tired of having these discussions, these are people who actually worry about my wellbeing, or my future wellbeing, in Magical Heaven and all that kind of stuff.

[00:14:41] So I have to learn how to love them despite the manipulative tactics that they're using. And that's what I work on myself, because what I realize, and a couple of your guests have said this, is like, we were raised to be judgmental. And in order for us to free ourselves of this judgment, we actually have to become less and less and chip away at that judgment. Because it's just as easy for us to look at these people and be like, "Look at these idiots in the Seventh-day Adventist church worshiping a racist woman who believed in the most weird stuff." "And how can they be this dumb to believe this stuff?"

[00:15:26] When it's not that. It's nothing to do with that. It has to do with whatever your forefathers, your parents, your grandparents, great grandparents, um, came into it. There was something that sucked them in that fit their personality. They forgot there'd be 30, 40, 50 people behind them that eventually exist that it may not fit their personality.

[00:15:50] My dad's parents who were my guardians after my parents died, they were born in Meridian, Mississippi in 1914 and 1917. My grandfather told me he saw lynch victims because this dude born 1914 in Meridian, Mississippi. He saw that stuff. I can't imagine the type of fear...

[00:16:15] If my fear was based off of the devil impersonating, I can't imagine being like 10, 11, seeing where they're cutting down a burnt body that people ate chicken and watched and brought their kids to.

[00:16:32] Santiago: Yeah, wow.

[00:16:33] Dee: You know, like, I can understand why you would want a rigid system that said everything makes sense. I get it. Yeah, and so, I have empathy for my grandparents, and I don't judge them in that. But me, the person that I am, and the stuff that I've experienced, I can't get information and just walk away from it. So that's what works for me. And I just hope that, that they found a semblance of peace and empathy, in their walk through this path that they chose.

[00:17:16] But I didn't ask to be chose for this. I was born on a Saturday and I was in church the next Saturday. That's just dumb when you think about it. Like, why would you take a one week old baby to a place where people have germs and... [Laughing] Yeah, but so I, I had no, my whole world was shaped like this.

[00:17:38] I asked my grandmother because she was saying she didn't want Trump to get elected. She was like, "Well, we know it's the end of the world now because that man's in office." [Laughing] Mind you, she's a hundred at this time, or 99. And, um, and I was like, "Grandmother, you think it's the end of the world because this dude got elected?"

[00:18:01] She was like, "Yep, believe it." 99 years old, she said this. And I was like, "But Grandmother, what did you think when you found out about the Holocaust?" "Because you were an adult with children when that happened." And I was like, "Didn't you think it was the end of the world and Jesus coming soon?" Because that's what she said, end of the world, Jesus be here any moment now.

[00:18:23] And she was like, "You have a good point." "Yeah, I did." Because we didn't, we didn't experience that. These people saw, heard at the end of the war, that there was, like, concentration camps. And then they saw 'em. I would become religious after that! Yeah! So, the concept that whatever arbitrary things is happening right now, that we get to get in minutes after it happens, is a sign of the end of the world, is a ludicrous concept.

[00:18:55] Santiago: Yeah, I'm really glad you touched on this idea of having empathy for your family members who still believe and who will say things that maybe we disagree with, maybe even hurt us in some cases, but that it genuinely comes from a place of love from them. Because I think that's important. I've talked before about how I love my mom. I think she is a really genuinely good person and that I think her theology is holding her back, but I think she comes from a good place.

[00:19:25] And, you know, I've talked about empathy before, so I appreciate you kind of bringing that back into this part of the conversation. Because I think as we're deconstructing, we talk a lot about the need of our family and friends and church, you know, old church members to have empathy for the people that they other. But at the same time, I do think it is important for us to try to not other them as we are leaving and, and maintain empathy for them. I think it's important to call out abuse and things that are harmful, but still maintain that empathy.

[00:20:02] Dee: The abuse, the, uh, the things that are hurting people and, and people being allowed to be in those positions is something that power itself... Because once you take it away from the religion or whatever, it's an organization. The organization, I see it just as a business. And we see countless times where business, whether it's Hollywood or some company or whatever, they create a situation which someone's a big earner or they, they're a cog in the machine.

[00:20:37] And they allow that person to continue to exist because it messes up the business. And we all have the horrible stories. I mean, one of the pastors I was around raped and molested 16 year old girls. The church didn't put him in jail. And I saw this dude in my, my little cousin's high school graduation. I was like, "Why are you here?" And I, I did the little like, "Yo, um, where have you been?" He was like, "You know where I've been." I was like, "Nah, not really, you have, where have you been?"

[00:21:15] So I thought he was in jail. He wasn't. I was just like, "Why are you here where children are?" I was never molested by any of the church people or anything like that. I have so much empathy for, for those who this is a triggering conversation for because they experienced it, or there's people they love have experienced it. Those things are a part of a power structure.

Segregated Conferences

[00:21:41] Dee: You have to think about the power structure that allows people, "If I move this piece, then it messes up my money." Or "It messes up my power." One power structure besides that is, as a non Seventh-day Adventist, a former Seventh-day Adventist... Why hasn't it blown up that it has segregated conferences?

[00:22:05] Santiago: Yeah, let's, let's talk about that.

[00:22:07] Dee: It just, where's the 60 Minutes interview for that one? I mean, why is this still going on? And I've heard all the excuses. "You know, well, you know, if, uh, if this happens, then, uh, you know, Black people don't want to lose their position." What makes you think Black people would lose their position? It's just goofy that, that I grew up with a Black conference, a Black camp meeting, and White camp meeting. Just normal way of talking about it.

[00:22:37] Midwest, South. I mean, I've never been to the, the White church in Huntsville, near Oakwood, in my life. I've been to every single other church in Huntsville and the surrounding areas, that is Black. I think I've driven past it. That's about it. I have no clue what that church is like.

[00:22:58] Santiago: Forgive maybe an, an obvious question, but what was that? Just because you'd heard things, you didn't feel safe or just...

[00:23:06] Dee: No! It's not a part of your conference. It's not a part of your anything. Like, in Chicago, in Maryland, in Detroit, you know, I went between the two. But in the South, in Huntsville, it's just weird. I mean, Oakwood generates the most money for GC in that area. I've barely been to, uh, Southern. I've been to Andrews a million times, um, but, uh, I've barely been to Southern College, but a handful of times.

[00:23:38] I knew people that went there, but there's no, it's an hour and a half away from, from, uh, Oakwood. At my time, it had no real connection with it. And again, I didn't grow up in only Black things, I grew up in mixed and predominantly White ones at times. So, it's a, it's a weird thing. Can you imagine how big Oakwood is in Huntsville, and the White church is doing nothing at all ever with it? That's weird.

[00:24:10] Santiago: Yeah, definitely. I can remember a couple of times where the churches in my city, you know, got together to do things. It wasn't, it wasn't that often, but at the very least, I can distinctly remember times where we did that. And we enjoyed it. We, we, we would always say, "Why don't we do this more often?"

[00:24:28] Dee: Yeah!

[00:24:29] Santiago: Did you see differences in opinions about the separate conference systems? 'Cause I've heard that some Black people want to maintain it that way for some of the reasons you said, but then there's other people who are saying, "No, this is silly, why, why do we still have this?" So what, what were the conversations you were hearing?

[00:24:45] Dee: The exact differences. Like, if I was sitting at a Sabbath dinner with people and they talked about it honestly, even people in power, they would say, "It doesn't make any sense." "But if we make a big fuss about this, it'll come back to haunt us." So, publicly, or, you know, when people ask them about this, they would toe the party line of like, "Well, what'll happen if this thing falls apart?" You know, "Am I gonna lose my position?"

[00:25:19] But privately, they would admit it. Some of them. And then I heard it from the predominantly White conferences, the same word for word thing. And that's a thing that I would say that people should look for within this. Because Seventh-day Adventism, I forgot who said this, is pretty much three or four different churches all wrapped into one. You have progressive, uber conservative, and then Ellen G White, uh, which really don't mesh in any way, shape, or form.

[00:25:51] But magically, all of them have go tos on the uncomfortable subjects, where they have word for word explanations. And when people call it a cult, I'm a little apprehensive with that, because I've never been shunned or anything like that. But it has cultishness to it when people have a word for word answer for things that make them, um, go against the brand.

Sweden, Racism, and CRT

[00:26:17] Dee: And I, I've learned a lot living over here in Sweden. Because as an American, we're used to the whole world critiquing us, right? It's kind of part of it. We critique ourselves. Not that big of a deal. Swedes protect the brand. [Laughing] We'll sit there and talk trash about the States to you. And I don't even see the States as like a separate entity or anything like that. I see the West as one thing.

[00:26:45] But you start sitting there and critiquing stuff, and you will watch people clam up and get frustrated with it if it's outside the purview of what they think is okay to critique about Sweden. Like, people ask me stuff like, "Is it racist over here?" And then I'll be like, "Yeah, it's actually worse than back home, minus the violence."

[00:27:07] And like, "Why?" I was like, "It's always reminded to me that they are aware that I am Black, that I am so-called different." "Yeah, but do you think it's you?" "No, I don't think it's me." Like, I've seen this since I was a little kid. And they were like, "Oh, but you know, you're just upset."

[00:27:26] Blah, blah, blah. This, that, that, and the other. And I always point out to them like, "You're a White Swede." "Why would you assume you have a concept, a modicum, of what I experience?" It's like me arguing with my wife about being a woman. Well, I mean, I've never experienced that myself, and I've had all kinds of weird things. But what they're really doing is they're protecting the brand of what you have in your head that's pushed into your head of this being a utopian place.

[00:27:58] Santiago: That's kind of the whole thing happening in the United States with this debate over Critical Race Theory.

[00:28:03] Dee: But that's a loud minority, this is the majority.

[00:28:08] Santiago: Ah, okay.

[00:28:10] Dee: So, I would say that I would compare this to our Seventh-day Adventist friends and family. Not them, the individual, but what they're taught to do. So, as you start to come out more and more to people, because you said not everybody knows, what you'll start to do, and I would, I would strongly suggest you start to write it down or something like that... Is you'll start to get the same arguments, word for word, over and over and over and over again. And the same questions over and over and over and over again. That's protecting the brand.

[00:28:46] CRT is a minority of people because what they're doing is they're just throwing paint against the wall to see what sticks. I'm just saying that it sounds bigger than it really is. And what they're able to do, those organizations, they're able to put people on school boards, and on TV, and pay for stuff, and all that kind of stuff. So, it sounds like the room is full, but it isn't.

[00:29:13] The reason why they use that is because when I was growing up, they were still doing the, um, the Lost Cause narrative. Do you know how many plantations I've been to? And first thing people say is like the, "The slaves here were treated like family." I went to Thomas Jefferson's... [laughing] Monticello! I'm a kid, I'm walking around, like, "Yep!" "Slaves were treated here like family!" And I think this was around the time they admitted about Sally Hemmings...

[00:29:46] Santiago: Yup.

[00:29:47] Dee: Who was a 14 year old half sister of his deceased wife, who he raped and had children with. Because I don't know if consent works when the person owns you. But they talked about how they were "treated like family." And I remember, just as a kid, being like, "Are you sure?" [Laughing] Because, you know, the whole owning in a country that's founded on freedom sounds a little weird to me. They're like, "No, they were treated like family, they ate great..." They just couldn't go anywhere because someone owned them.

[00:30:25] So, it's been built into, the ignorance has been built into them. So they're, they're hoping that it, it sticks a little bit further. And the idea is to try and get people, make it harder for people to follow what they learned in 2020. And again, it's active ignorance. That active ignorance has to have a push sometimes. So that's what you're seeing. But overall, it doesn't really work.

[00:30:54] Like if you think about 15 years ago, people were like, "Nah, gay people will never get married." "It's okay where they are right now." We're like, "Why do they need to get married?" Now even, even the conservatives don't talk that way anymore. Now they moved over to trans people. Now they moved over to CRT. But I think what you're seeing is the death throes of White Nationalism, um, and any of these more oppressive things. And if it comes back, I mean, it's more of us than there are of them.

[00:31:29] You know, these idiots are just fighting for just like anything. You know, I heard a person talk about if the teachers in Nashville, which I've really found that we've gotten to the point where we're desensitized to like tragedies because everybody's so used to their argument that we forget that three nine year olds got killed in Nashville.

[00:31:54] You should say, "You know what, I'm gonna take off my team colors and do this." But this one person said, "If the teachers in Nashville had guns..." And someone corrected them immediately, and was like, "Yeah, a lot of teachers had guns and nothing changed about the narrative." Like nothing changed about the narrative, at all.

[00:32:17] Like we're at a point where, where, when I look at back home, with these shootings and all this kind of stuff, I'm like, "Eh, I'm gonna stay over here." "I'm gonna deal with blatant racism on a day to day basis, because at least my children don't have to do the school shooter drill." And it could happen here. It's just not going to be as likely as it would happen there. But again, my ultimate goal in life is to get to the solution. I don't care about people feeling bad. I don't care about that. I'm pushing 50, I'll be 48 on the 19th. I just look at these cycles and they're boring to me now.

Music and Satanic Panic

[00:33:03] Dee: I grew up, you know, what I grew up with? I don't know if you, you even had it as bad as we did. I grew up in the satanic panic era. I remember this, like, I'm like eight years old, and you know, AYS, this time it's moved to the gym at Oakwood. And so we go there and it's like, this one isn't like, only my age. This is like, up to college students are there and it's packed. And they had two record players. One was blue and one was red. And then this couple got up there and they were like, "Well, we're going to show you that this is devil music."

[00:33:43] Which was working great for me, the guy that was worried about the devil impersonating his, his parents, right? So they get up, they play like, I don't know, Queen's song or whatever. And then they were like, "That's what it sounds like," like a snippet of it. And then they put on the other record player and they push play and it runs it backwards. And then they hear like, [mimics sound] "What he said was that we're kings in service for Satan and you must worship Satan."

[00:34:15] "I was like, crap, this is terrible!" "But I don't really care about Kiss, so I'm all right." [Laughing] Then they keep going. Then the next thing they do, they put on some Michael Jackson. And they're like [mimics sound]. And they're like, "That said this, and Satan is the king, and also, we have from a good authority that..." They literally said this, "That Michael Jackson learned to moonwalk in the theater in the air."

[00:34:42] What engineer [laughing] is gonna be sitting there watching some dude float around in the air moonwalking? And continue recording? What are you talking about? People would scream, just like if you and I saw the first Superman happen in front of us, we would scream and run away. We wouldn't just sit there and watch him! We'd be gone! But they told us that.

[00:35:10] Then they put on Prince, because, you know, Prince has Seventh-day Adventist background, so they waited for him. Prince, this is Purple Rain time, so Prince is a beast. Michael Jackson's a beast. And so they put him on, they do something, and they were like, "This is what it sounds like, what he, what he's talking about is Satan."

[00:35:29] Prince was raised like us, so he's actually putting religious messaging into his thing. He became a Jehovah's Witness later on in life. Both Michael Jackson and Prince, he was raised Jehovah's Witness before. He put a disclaimer on Thriller that it has nothing to do with the occult. According to them, Prince was laughing at us and talking about "Satan's King," you know, whatever, and he put that in backmasking so it could subliminally go into us. And then they finished it with like, "This is why you should not listen to secular music."

[00:36:08] Santiago: Yeah. I didn't grow up with nearly as much...

[00:36:13] Dee: Satanic panic?

[00:36:14] Santiago: Yeah, but, I have been given books that came from that time. And by that point, I had already started to kind of deconstruct. And I played music at church. I had taken music lessons. I wasn't, you know, professional musician, but I knew a thing or two. I knew enough that I was able to go through and deconstruct the text of one of these books and be like "This guy has no fucking clue of what he's talking about." This is Vance Farrell, if I am remembering correctly, and it's called Inside Rock Music, I think. It's available for free as a PDF, so if you're, don't give him any money, but I'll see if I can find the link and put it in the show notes.

[00:36:57] But yeah, I was able to go through that, and I was able to point out how some of the things that he was saying can be found in our hymnals in the Adventist church. And these are not even recent hymns. These are old hymns. And some of his objections, they're standard things within music. Yeah, some of these things within Satanic Panic, right? It goes back to that othering, right? It goes back to this othering. "It's new." "We don't understand it" or "We don't like it, so we're going to other it and we're going to make you afraid of it." "Because we should be afraid of it."

[00:37:28] Dee: I mean, Bach, Beethoven, all the stuff I played violin in church with, was popular music. That was it. Our hymns. People didn't have record players back in the day. They had known tunes that they wrote lyrics to, and those lyrics would be published in newspapers and people sit around in a bar and sing those things. Someone turned them into hymns over time. Bach was so gangsta, he used to walk around with a sword in his cane because he had beef with people all over the time and he would get in like real fights and try to kill people.

[00:38:10] But he was also being a patron and creating some of this music on a week to week basis, which he had to do either for the church or for the, uh, like Lord or whatever, royal person was in that area. So some of these songs you listen to a Bach, he did them, like Sunday service was over and he wrote them Monday and Tuesday so they could practice it and it was the biggest draw for the church. It was popular music. But I played Beethoven in Seventh-day Adventist churches.

[00:38:43] Santiago: Yeah, that reminds me about how John Calvin was completely against the organ because according to him, it was a "popish instrument," essentially calling it like an instrument of the devil or something. You know, this is the whole Protestant anti-Catholicism thing. They're trying to separate themselves out.

[00:39:02] And so it's hilarious to me, all these years later, you walk into basically any Protestant church, you'll probably find an organ. Even the early Adventists didn't use any musical instruments in their worship. And now you can't walk into an Adventist church without a piano or someone playing a guitar or something.

[00:39:19] That's why when, when I heard some of these arguments, I think that just accelerated my deconstruction because I was like, these arguments against music, first of all, some of these things are rooted in anti-Black racism.

[00:39:33] Dee: Oh, absolutely, yeah.

[00:39:34] Santiago: This idea of jazz and rock and, "Oh, it's coming from Africa" and all this stuff.

[00:39:41] Dee: "That's why we can't have drums in church."

[00:39:43] Santiago: Right, right. So the churches that you were in, did they have drums or no?

[00:39:47] Dee: Heck no, uh uh. Then again, there are different ones. So the ones I went to didn't have drums and stuff unless it was like AYS, stuff like that, or if it fit within the context of a specific performance. Most of it was orchestra stuff, choir stuff. Yeah, no drums. But there would be Black churches with drums, and I remember people like, "Hmm, not going over there." "They got drums."

[00:40:20] And I used to hear the argument with jazz, and since I played violin for 12 years, the thing that I realized about jazz very early on was that these are people who are so proficient in classical or standard music that they created something that uses that and breaks it apart and puts it back together at will. They're virtuosos. It's like, uh, Basquiat used to complain about people thinking he just did finger painting type stuff. And he was like, "Sometimes I want to show them that I can easily do what they think is art, but what I'm doing is breaking it apart."

[00:41:04] And you know, I was there when the beginning of hip hop started getting popular. Ah! The great thing about it was, the Satanic Panic had one beautiful thing for me. Every time a pastor made an argument about a popular artist, people would give up all their tapes and CDs, and since I obviously was going to hell, uh, they gave them to me! So I had an AMAZING collection!

[00:41:32] Both: [Laughing]

[00:41:34] Dee: And I would, I was so used to it, I had like, basically a, "If you come to me, here's the agreement, even if you want them back, they're not yours anymore, because you gave this up for Jesus."

[00:41:46] Both: [Laughing]

[00:41:49] Dee: So I was chillin! I appreciated that. I remember, uh, I wasn't at Oakwood at this time, but, you know, I'd be visiting my friends and stuff on campus and, um, Erykah Badu had just come out. And this dude did like a whole sermon about how she's like a African witch princess something whatever, and she's promoting the devil. People gave up all their stuff, so I'm just in there visiting. And people were bringing me their cases of tapes and CDs and just handing them. It was great. I must, I must say, what a blessing. [Laughing]

[00:42:33] So I appreciate from that perspective, but I do remember feeling fear with music that I should never, ever have felt. And then once I got around, I worked around the music industry, I used to do music, um, and when I got around people sitting in studios doing stuff, it's the most ridiculous, idiotic thing ever. Like, it's just stupid. Engineers don't sit there, they don't even do drugs or anything, even if people do do drugs. Why? Because they would not be able to perform their job. Yeah.

[00:43:11] And you know, like the concept that people could do with seances and all kinds of craziest, crazy things in a studio, is insane. Because everybody has the background we do in some facet of form and they wouldn't deal with people because of that. You have to go find a record label that's cool with seances, you know what I mean?

[00:43:37] "We're the devil label." "Yeah, just, you're welcome to do that," because it wouldn't work. Most of these people come with a church background, and you think of your Aretha Franklins and all this kind of stuff, like, her dad was one of the biggest pastors in America. It's an insane concept that she has, she would just be around crap.

[00:43:58] Santiago: Yeah I definitely agree.

Dr. Ben Carson

[00:44:00] Santiago: So before I forget, I want to ask you real quick about Dr Ben Carson, speaking of kind of celebrity or famous people, if you will. You said that he mentioned you in, or your family, in one of his books. So first off for anyone who hasn't heard his name before, I'm sure most Adventists have, but for anyone who's not Adventist or who hasn't heard of his name before, can you talk real quick about who he is and then the connection to your family?

[00:44:27] Dee: Dr Carson is a neurosurgeon who became famous for separating conjoined twins who were conjoined at the skull. He's a Seventh-day Adventist. He was able to write some really big books like Gifted Hands and Thinking Big, which, uh, Gifted Hand turns into a movie and Cuba Gooding Jr portrayed him in the movie.

[00:44:51] He was essentially on track to be, like, the next Martin Luther King lite or something like that, you know, like George Washington Carver or something of that nature. And then all of a sudden, he critiqued Obama, at a prayer luncheon or something, to his face, and then became a darling of the right. He then ended up in the cabinet for Trump.

[00:45:19] But my dad and him were very, very close when he was at the University of Michigan, going through school. He's not famous as a student. And I believe they were there, like the day I was born. I know they were around when I was a little kid, a lot. Then my parents died and I wasn't really around them for a second, and then a couple of years later, I moved to the DC, Maryland area.

[00:45:48] They lived there, and, um, just cool peoples. I was at his house when he became famous with the conjoined twins, and then people kind of frenzied around him. But to me, it wasn't that big of a deal. And he gave me an early copy of his first book, Gifted Hands, and he asked me to read it in, you know, like 12. Give, uh, my honest feedback. So, you know, with adults, you didn't assume they were serious when they say your honest feedback or they take it into consideration.

[00:46:26] And because I grew up with everybody claiming to be my dad's best friend and my mom's best friend, and I knew that they actually were close. I, my thing was like, "I like this, I like that." And it's a rags to riches or whatever, overcoming, like, simplistic, uh, way of, a kid's book, basically, of saying, like, you know, "I was poor and now I'm a doctor."

[00:46:51] I'm sure I told him critiques of that, but I said, you know, "My last thing is that you claim my dad was like your best friend." "You didn't mention him in your autobiography." And he just calmly looked at me, we were sitting in the car. And he was like, um, "That's a good point." And then the second book, Thinking Big, came out. And he sent it to me, or gave it to me, uh, before it came out. And he was like, "Read it."

[00:47:19] And then on a page there he talks, just one, about my dad and... His basic, again, these books are written for like third graders, to be honest. The basic rundown of that and the car accident. And, um I was really impressed that an adult listened to me and he was a mad chill dude back then. And his wife is awesome, is awesome. But I haven't been around him since my teens.

[00:47:53] Uh, so it was kind of jarring to see what he became. And it's also weird that he gave up his Martin Luther King or George Washington Carver lite story to become, I have no clue what else. But he, the man right now, I, I don't know that dude. But yeah, he was a part of my life. I never really talked about it because once he became famous, it's just no point talking about it.

[00:48:23] 'Cause I have no clue why he turned out that way. I was around his mom, you know, can't even imagine. I mean, he's made statements like, "Black people were better off before segregation ended." What are you talking about, bruh? [Laughing] Serious? What are you talking about? I hope his mom wasn't alive when he said that.

[00:48:49] In retrospect, the one thing that I am a little irritated with is how people talked about my parents dying. My five year old brother also died, when I was six. And that kind of robbed me of the grieving process of him. Because they were thinking about their friends. It seems like you focus on the five year old dying a little bit more, or at least include the five year old. So yeah, that's the story with that. And again, I have no contact with them. I have no opinion. I think it's weird. He was a pretty gentle, cool dude to be around then, but whoever I've seen on TV is just as weird to me as it is to you.

Moving to Sweden

[00:49:39] Santiago: I want to go back real quick to your move to Sweden. Because I think you, you had mentioned at some point that it was kind of on a whim. So can you walk us through, like, was this after you had finished school during that time? Or when did this happen?

[00:49:58] Dee: No, this is later. I was living in New York. It's so weird to explain the internet to people now, because it was weird back then. Uh, so this is like 2002, or 2001. I was on this, this site where, it was like a music centric site, and this girl hit me from Sweden. And we just shot emails back or inboxes back and forth. One day she said she was, uh, coming to New York and I was like, "Here's my number," which was like a thing on that site. "You can call me, I can let you know if there's anything that's going on and if I have time, I'll catch up with you."

[00:50:41] Long story short, holiday weekend in May, which, which one is that one? I believe it was Memorial Day weekend. I'm just walking through Manhattan and we're in Midtown, my cousin and I. I suggest that we, um, go into Macy's, ride the escalator up, and suck up the air conditioning. It's a super hot day. And this girl walks up to me and goes, "Are you Dee?"

[00:51:03] And for people that don't know what New York is, you don't see your neighbors in town. Like, if you do, you're "Oh my goodness!" "What are you doing here, in the same island we live on?" She walks up to me, she was there for 10 days, and then we, um, kind of start hanging for the rest of the time. About a year later, she was like, "Why don't you move to Sweden?"

[00:51:29] The company I worked for was just, uh, closed down and I had some other options, but I was 28, just turning 28. And I was like, "Will I ever get a chance to ever move to another country?" 'Cause you know, I'm thinking 30 and all that kind of stuff. So I agreed to come over here and came over and I've been here since. Didn't work out, but we have two beautiful kids from that and I'm married now and have a kid on the way.

[00:52:06] A cool thing happened. My grandmother, who I told you about is 105, almost 106. I called her when I got over here. I was like, "Hey, grandmother, I'm over in Sweden." She's like, "Oh, my grandmother was Swedish." Yeah, so my great great grandmother was Swedish, and we're actually tracing it now. And she moved over to the States in, like, 1881, met a formerly enslaved dude, my great great grandfather, married him, had four children.

[00:52:37] And he was unloading a boat in the Chicago Harbor, and you can look this up, 1890. And a night watchman walked downstairs with a lit lantern, and it had kerosene or gasoline on the boat, blew it to smithereens, killed him. Uh, my great grandmother, who she was pregnant with, um, she was born after her dad died. And then a Swedish dude showed up and was like, "Yeah, I'll marry you, but you have to tell people if they come over, that the, uh, kids are the maids."

[00:53:18] Yeah, but she lived till 1940. So I think she went to my grandmother's wedding, met my, my mom's, uh, oldest siblings and never learned how to write in English. So she read, wrote in Swedish, so they'd have to get like a Swede come over and translate the letters. So I weirdly moved to a place that I actually have genetic ties to.

[00:53:41] But over here, they can trace their, uh, history back to the 1500s. Like pretty much anybody can. So they don't really see us in America as, even White Americans, as like, "Swedish" Swedish. Yeah, but a very fascinating story, and we're following it right now.

[00:54:01] Santiago: Yeah, that's interesting.

Ethics and Adventism

[00:54:02] Santiago: Bringing it back to kind of faith and leaving faith, you've mentioned empathy. We've talked about a whole wide range of issues that different people will have different thoughts on. How do you think your morals and ethics have changed since leaving faith behind?

[00:54:23] Dee: Over this 25 years, it's gone in phases. You and I are culturally Seventh-day Adventists. So having a decision to leave Christianity does not have anything to do with our cultural background of being Seventh-day Adventists. So, it went from the logical, leaving Christianity, but still retaining the cultural Seventh-day Adventism there. Those things will continue to swim around in your mind. Pieces of it will exist way later on.

[00:55:05] As you get older, you get kids and all that kind of stuff, like, there will be things where it pops up because it's so embedded in who you are. So morally what I do is I, I have a practice of questioning "Where did I get this information from?" I perceive something a certain way, and then I kind of dig around in my head and try to figure out why do I perceive it that way?

[00:55:33] Because while I may have an overarching perspective of life and a moral center, there's a whole bunch of stuff I haven't scratched. There's just no reason to, you know, touch every single strand of a rug. So when those strands pull something up, I try to backtrack, figure out where it came from. But so I build my morality, first, does it feel okay? But I also build it with the concept of loosening those strands to kind of build myself in a different manner.

[00:56:08] I used to be jealous of people who weren't raised super religious because it seems like they would have it, have an easier time just being free. But what I realized is like, all of us in the West, or wherever you're from, we already have the same type of conditioning to justify our existence in whatever we are in life. The great thing about coming out of that type of conditioning is you can apply that logic to anything else.

[00:56:43] You want to understand how capitalism affects you? You want to understand how patriarchy affects you? Apply the same logic to it. Learn about it and try to piece and pull apart those pieces. Because I would never say, I would happily say I'm a feminist, but I would never say that I'm fully cured of patriarchy, you know what I mean? And sexism, you know, it's just like when White people come up to me and be like, "Well, I'm obviously not a racist."

[00:57:15] I'll be like, "You sure?" "Because it's kind of part of society, you know?" "But glad you cleared that hurdle!" You know what I mean? But, uh, my, my morals are based off of that, and the more you get tested, the more you figure out how much is just talk, and how much is what you need to work on.

[00:57:38] Santiago: I think that's a good point, absolutely. With everything we've talked about, your background, your education, the people that helped you, the people that also maybe didn't, would you say that, not the people, but the Adventist church, the structure, the institution, and everything that comes along with that. Would you say that it is a net positive, negative, or neutral force in the world?

[00:58:09] Dee: In the world? I don't know. I don't really know. Anything that tries to control your inner thoughts and, and how you feel about things can be dangerous to the majority of people. We live in a world, a good example would be like, people who run for the president, the President of the United States. So you, out of 320 million people, are the correct person [laughing] to fix all the problems? For 320 million people plus, you know, the roughly 8 billion people on the planet altogether?

[00:58:51] We base our society off of those type of people. Megalomaniac idiots. Our religions should not be based off of them or based off of one size fits all for anything. Our religions, our gems, our whatever, should not be this. I think that religion in general has a habit of doing a one size fit all, and it stifles what people are.

[00:59:19] I mean, just in my lifetime, I've been able to see people be free enough to not get beat down for being openly gay, which they always existed. We always knew they were there, but there was a level of, uh, of danger that, that was around that. And they had to be careful in certain situations.

[00:59:43] In general sense, not Seventh-day Adventists, just all together, any religion that tries to control you is taking away your ability for you to be yourself, and we all lose in that process. But, on the flip side, if you're a person who needs a structure in order for things to make sense, then, by all means, follow the structure. Just make sure you're thinking for yourself while inside of that structure, if that makes any sense.

[01:00:15] But Seventh-day Adventism, I don't see it any different than any other religion. I no longer separate it from other religions, from Catholicism, anything else. There's very good people within it. There's very bad people within it. It's the structure itself. But until we figure out a way in which the power dynamic for religion itself is not create evil stuff in order to keep, keep the money from rolling in, then, you know, we'll be jacked. Because the type of people that go to keep the money rolling in may be failed businessmen, but can do great, you know, getting your grandmother to give all of her life savings to them.

[01:01:01] What I've purposely done is learn how to see religion itself in an overarching concept while I study stuff like the historical context of Seventh-day Adventism. But religion itself, I, I see no difference. Sorry, it was a roundabout answer on that one.

[01:01:20] Santiago: No, no, that's okay. I've said, before in my interview with Jeff that he came to the conclusion that it is a net negative. That's kind of where I landed as well. But there definitely are positives. There are positives that I experienced, right? There are positive things in my life today that I can attribute from growing up in a church community.

[01:01:41] Dee: I'm going back to my 30th high school at a Seventh-day Adventist thing. I'm an orphan kid that lived in multiple states, and I was able to walk in any classroom and people already knew who I was or my family. That is a beautiful and positive thing that I attribute to Seventh-day Adventist community. That's an awesome thing. But outside of that, being spoon fed reality, a little weird. Little weird.

[01:02:11] Santiago: Yeah, there's an interesting kind of push and pull with this idea of community. It can be really good, but there's also the possibility of being ostracized or the inherently damaging things that come with being part of that community.

[01:02:30] Dee: Yeah, like I said, moving over here, watching people protect the brand, at all costs? You also realize why it's a uniquely American religion. America has been walking around talking about "the greatest country on earth." [Laughing] I mean, like, do you know how goofy it feels to sit in a movie theater and someone says that and you're looking around like, "Oh, that's embarrassing."

[01:02:58] Like, this thing is like, there have been other religions in the past, but, uh, 1,800 years after the death of its supposed creator, we got this on lock. [Laughing] That, that level of, of self assuredness is repulsive, but it's very American, and British, and Roman, [laughing] and any other, any other, you know, we tried to take over the world thing. That assuredness is a scary thing.

[01:03:43] Santiago: Yeah, I think you, you mentioned somewhere that that's kind of why you identify with the label of agnostic.

[01:03:51] Dee: Yeah.

[01:03:51] Santiago: We're willing to recognize that we don't know what we don't know.

[01:03:55] Dee: Yeah, not knowing is great! Not knowing means you can learn some more. I mean, can you imagine taking a class and walking into it and being like, "I've already got this on lock." "I know everything there is to know about this." Like, why are you there? Life is a class. It's not that hard. And this is not a diss to people who are, uh, atheists.

[01:04:21] But the hardcore atheists that are like, "You're wrong." "It's 100% chance that there is no god, and there is no this, there's no that." It's not even from a Judeo Christian concept of a God, but just the concept that there's no higher power. I mean, my humble opinion, based off of nothing at all, is that we are the worst thing in the universe, and there are tons of higher powers over us, you know?

[01:04:54] Who, who could seem magical to us because they're a billion years in advancements that we, when we're blowing each other up, haven't figured out yet. Yeah, so the concept that there's no higher power, to me, is ludicrous. But I also don't know, which is the most safe thing to say. I don't know.

[01:05:17] Santiago: Yeah, yeah, definitely an important thing to be able to, to reach is being comfortable with that. Well, Dee, we have been on for a while. I know it's late. I appreciate you sticking with me. I have, if it's all right, can I ask you one last question?

[01:05:36] Dee: Ah, no worries.

Closing Thoughts

[01:05:37] Santiago: Okay. So you're going to come to the US for your 30th high school reunion.

[01:05:43] Dee: Class of 1993, the greatest of all time, yep.

[01:05:47] Santiago: You're going to have conversations with some of your old classmates, you know, I don't, I don't imagine any of them would hear this, but if any people, family, friends, acquaintances, if anybody that you know who knew you as an Adventist, as, as a young person, what would you want to say to them that you haven't had a chance to say already?

[01:06:08] Dee: My classmates, we went through grade school, high school, and college. Most of them have at least a decent understanding as to who I am. Because we're a weirdly close class. But I would say, to the few of them that have decided that they're gung ho back into their religious ways, or have always been there, and they would like to "help" me come find the light, I would just like to remind them that I was sitting next to them when they found this information out, and I know just as much as they do.

[01:06:44] So it's a little offensive [laughing] to continuously say the same questions and same, you know, same leading concepts to me. So those few handful, and again, they're probably not in my class, my class is awesome. But those few people that want to give me this, like, fake curious questions, like, "Well, what about your..." "Don't you want to see your mom and dad again?" you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah, just please don't do that.

[01:07:17] Yeah, but beyond that, I love you all. You are awesome. Some of you all aren't, but, um, yeah, that's why I'm going, you know, flying over and leaving my pregnant wife and teenage kids and my dog, um, just to get some energy by being around this, being around people that have known me before the age of 28, so that'll be awesome.

[01:07:40] Santiago: Well, happy birthday coming up and wishing you safe travels.

[01:07:46] Dee: Yeah, I'll just skip Vespers.

[01:07:48] Both: [Laughing]

[01:07:50] Dee: I really don't, I don't see the point in sitting in there.

[01:07:54] Santiago: Well, that is absolutely your right to do that.

[01:07:57] Dee: It's been great talking to you. I really like what you're doing. I would say to the, the people that are listening to this, that are actually looking for something, like there's life after this stuff, and you're not going to exist in a anti Seventh-day Adventist, anti Christian, anti whatever you went through, uh, space for the rest of your life.

[01:08:21] There's just like, joy and, you know, watching your kids grow, or your dog, or cat or whatever the heck you have, you lizard. And there's joy there, but you're going to have a lifelong experience of getting out of this. And, um, just embrace the experience and don't hold it against your parents or whoever.

[01:08:44] If they're assholes, then hold it, hold it against them, the individual person for being an asshole. But, um, don't hold it against the whole community from that 'cause you're gonna miss out on people that, you know, like moving to Sweden gave me one insight. All these times I've moved throughout my life in the US, it's one thing that I had never understood is like the level of loneliness you have when there is no one who has context for anything of your backstory.

[01:09:14] Not your partner, not your wife, nothing. No one knows my backstory here in this entire country. Like they have heard it, but they have no context. And, you know, I was telling my daughter not too long ago that, you know, as a teenager, you think, like, the fun stuff that you're doing brings you closer to your friends, but it's actually the friends that were there with you in the sheer boredom.

[01:09:45] You know, those are the ones that they saw, you know, they didn't need explosions around them, or a great DJ, or whatever. Like, they were there with the boredom stuff, and that bond that you have with those people in that boredom is the best. So I just hope that people don't throw away just relationships from that.

[01:10:05] You can create boundaries and tell people to step back if they keep doing the same type of things. "Why are you leaving?" "Why don't you come to church?" All that kind of stuff. But don't just like, throw everything out with the bath water. That's, that's my experience as someone who lives in another country.

[01:10:23] Santiago: That's a great insight, and I think that makes a lot of sense. Well Dee, I'mma let you get some sleep.

[01:10:31] Dee: Thank you, sir. I feel sorry for you with the editing on this one.

[01:10:36] Santiago: No, all good!

[01:10:37] Dee: Good god!

[01:10:38] Both: [Laughing]

[01:10:40] Santiago: Thanks so much, and I hope we'll chat again some point.

[01:10:44] Dee: Absolutely.

Outro

[01:10:45] Santiago: Thanks for listening. If you have a story to share about your Adventist or fundamentalist experience, we'd love to hear it. You can submit stories on our website at hell.bio — that's H E L L . B I O or leave us a voicemail at 301-750-8648 and we might feature it in a future episode. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you on the next one!